| Weekend
Edition
April 19 / 20, 2008
An
Interview with Howard Zinn on the State of the Empire
Zinn
Speaks
By
WAJAHAT ALI
At
85 years old, the indefatigable Howard Zinn still maintains the
prolific activist and academic jab fueled by his political and social
activism nurtured during The Civil Rights Movement. The esteemed
historian and controversial rabble rouser’s seminal work,
The People’s History of the United States, taught in high
schools and colleges across the nation, has been adapted as a documentary,
The People Speak, featuring readings by Sean Penn, Matt Damon, Viggo
Mortenson and Marisa Tomei. Still touring and giving lectures, Zinn
shows no signs of stopping, however his hectic schedule has slowed
to devote more time for his family obligations. After nearly a month
of back and forth emails and missed opportunities, Professor Zinn
agreed to an interview reflecting on his historic and memorable
time at Spelman College in the ‘60’s, his thoughts on
the Democratic Party, his philosophy of dissent as democracy, and
his hope for America’s future.
ALI:
Your experiences and acts of civil disobedience at Spelman College
are, by now, thoroughly well known. However, in the 21st century,
one could look at the student body at many liberal college campuses
and see that fiery protest and consciousness replaced by apathy
and materialism. Where has that fighting spirit gone? You spoke
against “discouragement” at the 2005 Spelman College
commencement speech - what of it now?
ZINN:
What you describe as the difference between the Sixties and today
on campuses is true, but I would not go too far with that. There
are campus groups all over the country working against the war,
but they are small so far. Remember, the scale of involvement in
Vietnam was greater – 500,000 troops vs. 130,000 troops in
Iraq. After five years in Vietnam, there were 30,000 U.S. dead vs.
today we have 4,000 dead. The draft was threatening young people
then, but not now. Greater establishment control of the media today,
which is not reporting the horrors inflicted on the people of Iraq
as the media began in the U.S. to report on U.S. atrocities like
the My Lai Massacre. In the case of the movement against the Vietnam
War, there was the immediate radicalizing experience of the Civil
Rights Movement for racial equality, whose energy and indignation
carried over into the student movement against the Vietnam War.
No comparable carry over exists today. And yes, there is more materialism,
more economic insecurity for young people going to college –
huge tuition costs putting pressure on students to concentrate on
studies and do well in school.
ALI:
You were heavily involved in the Civil Rights Movement that dealt
not only with racial empowerment and equality, but also re-examination
of U.S. foreign policy and withdrawal from the brutal Vietnam War.
Here we are now in 2008 with a seemingly unending, and many say
illegal, occupation of Iraq. “Racism” has emerged as
a contentious topic due to Obama running for President and his Reverend’s
controversial comments. Yet, most say he and other candidates talk
“pretty” but are unwilling to fundamentally confront
and change the problems of race and foreign policy. As one who has
observed this socio-political climate from the grassroots since
the 1960’s, what has changed if anything in regards to racial
enlightenment and the humanizing of non – American, “foreign
others”?
Zinn:
The Civil Rights Movement was an educational experience for many
Americans. The result was more opportunities for a small percentage
of Black people, perhaps 10% or 20%, so more Black youth going to
college and going into the professions. A greater consciousness
among White people - not all, but many - of racism. For most Black
people, however, there is still poverty and desperation. The Ghettos
still exist, and the proportion of Blacks in prison is still much
greater than Whites. Today, there is less overt racism, but the
economic injustices create an “institutional racism”
which exists even while more Blacks are in high places, such as
Condoleezza Rice in Bush’s Administration and Obama running
for President.
Unfortunately,
the greater consciousness among Whites about Black equality has
not carried over to the new victims of racism – Muslims and
Immigrants. There is no racial enlightenment for these groups, which
are huge. Millions of Muslims and an equal number of immigrants,
who whether legal or illegal, face discrimination both legally from
the government and extra-legally from White Americans – and
sometimes Black and Hispanic Americans. The Democratic Presidential
candidates are avoiding these issues in order to cultivate support
among White Americans.
This
is shameful, especially for Obama, who should use his experience
as a Black man to educate the public about discrimination and racism.
He is cautious about making strong statements about these issues
and about foreign policy. So, in keeping with the tradition of caution
and timidity of The Democratic Party, he takes positions slightly
to the left of The Republicans, but short of what an enlightened
policy would be.
ALI: You said the democratic spirit of the American people
is best represented when people are picketing and voicing their
opinion outside the White House. How does this nature of dissent
and protest serve as the crux of a democracy and a healthy, functioning
civic society? Many would argue this is divisive, no?
ZINN:
Yes, dissent and protest are divisive, but in a good way, because
they represent accurately the real divisions in society. Those divisions
exist – the rich, the poor – whether there is dissent
or not, but when there is no dissent, there is no change. The dissent
has the possibility not of ending the division in society, but of
changing the reality of the division. Changing the balance of power
on behalf of the poor and the oppressed.
ALI:
The People’s History of The United States is now considered
a seminal work taught in high schools and universities across the
country. Why do you think the work has had such lasting, influential
impact?
ZINN:
Because it fills a need, because there is a huge emptiness of truth
in the traditional history texts. And because people who gain some
understanding on their own that there are things wrong in society,
they look for their new consciousness; their new feelings to be
represented by a more honest history.
ALI:
Minority voters, like Hispanic Catholics, voted solidly for Bush
in 2002, and some sons of immigrants have virulent anger and disdain
against “illegal” immigrants. It seems many marginalized
voices have forgotten their history and now side with those actively
intent on keeping them either on the sidelines or in some form “oppressed.”
How do we explain this discrepancy?
ZINN:
It is to the interest of the people in power to divide the rest
of the population in order to rule them. To set poor against middle
class, White against Black, Native born against immigrants, Christians
against other religions. It serves the interest of the establishment
to keep people ignorant of their own history,
ALI:
Most say that corporations now own American media. What is the proper
outlet for democratic discourse and dissemination of information
if indeed there is a biased monopoly over media?
ZINN:
Because of the control of the media by corporate wealth, the discovery
of truth depends on an alternative media, such as small radio stations,
networks like Pacifica Radio, programs like Amy Goodman’s
Democracy Now. Also, alternative newspapers, which exist all over
the country. Also, cable TV programs, which are not dependent on
commercial advertising. Also, the internet, which can reach millions
of people by-passing the conventional media.
ALI:
Will anything change in regards to US foreign policy in the Middle
East, specifically on Palestine and Israel, if the Democratic Party
wins in 2008?
ZINN:
The Democratic candidates, Clinton and Obama, have not shown any
sign of a fundamental change in the policy of support of Israel.
They have not shown sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people.
Obama has occasionally referred to the situation of the Palestinians
but as the campaign has gone on, he seems reluctant to bring this
up, and instead emphasizes his support of Israel.
So,
a change in policy will require more pressure from other countries
and more education of the American people, who at this point know
very little about what has been happening to the Palestinian people.
The American people are naturally sympathetic to those they see
as oppressed, but they get very little information from political
leaders or the media, which would give them a realistic picture
of the suffering of Palestinians under the Occupation
ALI:
How can “the left” reconcile their assumed indifference
to religion with the growing “religious” sector of society
siding with the “conservative” parties? Can there be
a peace between the two or is this a permanent schism? I’ve
noticed bigotry on both sides, between the “secularists”
and “religionists.”
ZINN:
The Left needs to more clearly make a distinction between the bigotry
of fundamentalism and the progressive tradition in religion. In
Latin America, there is “liberation theology.” In the
U.S., there were the priests and nuns who supported Black people
in the South and who protested against the Vietnam War. So, it’s
not a matter of being for or against religion, but of deciding whether
religion can play a role for justice and peace rather than for violence
and bigotry.
ALI:
Most don’t know that you were a brigadier during WW2. Did
this experience bring about the “anagnorisis” and epiphany
catalyzing fundamental changes in your ideology?
ZINN:
I did not know much history when I became a bombardier in the U.S.
Air Force in World War II. Only after the War did I see that we,
like the Nazis, had committed atrocities…Hiroshima, Nagasaki,
Dresden, my own bombing missions. And when I studied history after
the War, I learned from reading on my own, not from my university
classes, about the history of U.S. expansion and imperialism.
ALI:
You’re now a man in his golden years, and you look back at
your many accomplishments. You’ve done amazing things. Any
regrets? And also, if you could choose something that would embody
your legacy – what would it be?
ZINN:
I have no regrets about my political activity, only that I sometimes
got carried away with it and didn’t find the right balance
between obligations to my family and my need to be involved in social
movements. As for a work of mine that embodies my “legacy,”
probably it is not one book, but rather the combination of being
a writer and an activist, being a public intellectual, by using
my scholarship for social change.
ALI:
Many look to the future horizons with bleak, cynical eyes foreshadowing
disastrous scenarios resulting from our hubris and excess. Recession.
War. Deficit. Extremism. Global Anti Americanism. Insincere Partisan
politics. Will we implode? Can we move forward? Do you have hope
for the future of America?
ZINN:
The Present situation for the U.S. looks grim, but I am hopeful,
as I see the American people waking up and being overwhelmingly
opposed to this war and to the Bush regime, as I reflect on movements
in history and how they arose surprisingly when they seemed defeated.
I believe the American people have the capacity to create a new
movement, which would change the direction of our nation from being
a military power to being a peaceful nation, using our enormous
wealth for human needs, here and abroad.
Wajahat Ali is Pakistani Muslim American who is
neither a terrorist nor a saint. He is a playwright, essayist,
humorist, and Attorney at Law, whose work, "The Domestic
Crusaders," (www.domesticcrusaders.com)
is the first major play about Muslim Americans living in a post
9-11 America. His blog is at http://goatmilk.wordpress.com/.
He can be reached at wajahatmali@gmail.com
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